War Kits- Noplzhalp

Yes, I do like the idea of the Axeplode because it adds a lot of strategy and would be extremely exciting when there could be traps everywhere, although the animation and everything will have to be turned off as well because I can see lag issues incoming if that doesn't happen. Also agree with splitting up knockback and the no knockback, because sometimes it is a burden rather than something beneficial at times and it will give another way to play the game (switching between either weapons for different situations).

Leather armor is so strong. Fire arrows OP because it ignores leather armor. And good point there, the map suddenly becomes crucial to the war along with the kit which makes it more exciting like in real wars, where the terrain is important. This makes the map seem more important than simply just "another arena". Thank you for pointing that out! Also, you always seem to forget that both teams will have fire aspect, so in Inferno, both teams will not have water to save themselves from the fire.

Thing is, it's not a single fight. It is not a 1v1, it is a team deathmatch. The fairness is in the kits and weapons provided because both teams have the exact same kit. The only difference is the two teams will have different skill levels and weapon preferences. If it's a 2v2, and one of the teams decide to split up while the other team decides to stick together and gang 1 person, it is the fault of the first team for not playing like a team. (Although if the match is unfair because of afk-ers then I have nothing to say) Unless it's pre-planned, like at the start of the game someone just says "Hey, let's do 1v1s" and the rest agrees. If not, I don't see why you should be making DeityWar out like the PvP tourney where it's mostly 1v1s, or single fights.

"If someone needs their golden apple, it usually means that they won't be able to kill someone if they go down, apple or not." I don't quite get this, so if someone eats the golden apple it usually means that they lose? So why are you so against golden apples? Just don't eat your golden apple and you usually win? All I'm saying about golden apples is that they "reduce spawn camping" and give a "slight advantage" (as quoted on my previous post), I did not guarantee that they will win. First you make the golden apples out to be so powerful with their "absorption", and suddenly you're saying like they're useless. I don't see where this is going to be honest.

"I think that forcing people to play for their weaknesses is only a good thing when the person is good. If I am okay with a bow but terrible with a sword and on Juggernaut, I would get destroyed and not enjoy war."
Okay, look at your signature, Typodestoyer (+18), you've destroyed people at least 18 times in a single match and these people did not enjoy war. I think we should get rid of you. (I'm just kidding btw. Just kidding! Don't press that ban button!)

I tried to be funny and link both of those together using your logic. I do get what you mean, I am sorry about saying that because I did not think that through.

The thing is, you do not seem to be getting the reason why it's called DeityWar, and not DeityPvP, actually even if it is DeityPvP. You're thinking in terms of what you want to do, and not the actual intention of the game. There is a reason why there are teams, there is a reason why it's a team deathmatch, and not a deathmatch, and why each person's individual kills add to the total score of the team and not "The first person to reach 10 kills win!" and also why KDR is given in the website. The objective of the game, is to reach a certain amount of points before the other team before your team wins. You might wonder how that's connected to KDR, but the most simplest logic is to get as many kills as possible (to gain points for your team) and as little deaths as possible (to give as little points to the other team). That might or might not have been Imdeity's intention, but that's how I look at it in the team deathmatch perspective of DeityWars, and that's why MVP is calculated as Total kills minus total deaths, and not your KDR, because it is stating the amount of points you have contributed minus points lost for your team. Even in DeityPvP, there are no rules, you can call for a 1v1, but let your teammate hide where your opponent can't see him and when the fight begins it's suddenly a 2v1. So I don't see why you make PvP sound like some honorable experience where everyone 1v1s and uses the same armor and weapons compared to DeityWar when you made the correlation between the number of players in PvP server and number of players playing War. Also like I mentioned earlier, DeityWar is meant to represent war to a certain extent, hence the same name. Like war, people will tend to take cover (like in trenches) to recover, or reload their guns or whatever (Source: Call of Duty, Battlefield, not actual wars mind you) In the same way, when you realise you're losing too much health you could run away,take cover and use your golden apple/regen health slowly, and join back the fight at a different/better time, thus preserving your KDR and helping the team in a way.

I still believe Fire is a pretty cool way of playing, because DoT is

Okay, halfway writing that, I went to search how much damage Fire did to you. And let's just say I am confused.

"Level I adds 3 burn ticks, and each additional level adds 4 more burn ticks." - Minecraft Wiki

From what I know, each tick is 1/2 heart, so that adds up to a total of 1 and a 1/2 hearts or 2 hearts according to another source. This is not inclusive of the arrow's impact damage of course. The golden apple gives 2 hearts and Regeneration II which is gives a 2 and a half hearts. This does not include natural regeneration. Regarding Axeplode, you seem to support the idea that charging in like some crazed lunatic is supposed to get you kills, and that a Fire aspect I bow is the only thing standing in your way. I find the melee weapons adequate, because I still get kills with the stone axe. Even the wooden sword with knockback was useful (Although this is usually coupled with the bow, or with something blocking the opponent from bouncing away)

 

First of all, leather armor is pretty good. It is half as effective as full iron if I remember correctly (28% to 60%).
Second of all, when I talk about fairness, I mean "in the chance that a 1v1 happens", which is quite often in my experiences. I never said that it should be just 1v1s, however.

It's called DeityWar just because there are two teams fighting. That's really it. There has never been any connection established between the two. I've played on some "real" "war" servers, with guns and texture packs and stuff, and they are not comparable to deitywar. DeityPvP just doesn't sound as cool, for one.
The MVP really is the "most valuable player", not the player with the highest KDR in any given fight. I'd rather have someone who killed 10 people and died 6 times than someone who killed two people but never died, because the first person brought the team closer to the goal of winning. DeityWar is a test of skill. You can take cover, but hiding is not pvp, it's the unfortunate side effect of it. The goal is to kill people while not dying. Hiding does not accomplish that. If you get health for kills, then this goal is encouraged.
On topic of 2v1s- it is a team deathmatch. I get that. I don't try to make PvP sound flawless- it's not. I just think that fire bows, while they do add a new weapon, cause more trouble than they're worth.
And don't bother arguing with anything that I say about golden apples. That's my personal opinion.

I'm not saying that the stone axe is impossible to get kills with. I'm saying it's like the sword on Wow kit- completely outmatched. And fire, 2 hearts is a fair bit. In comparison, a full-power bow shot does 3-3.5 hearts. If I get a quick shot off, that's two hearts. End of story. By the time anyone would get to water, they'd already have taken most of the damage.

Also, just something I'd like to say. The point of DeityWar is not to be fair. Sure, that's something that it wants to accomplish. But that's not the point. The purpose of DeityWar, intended or not, has been PvP. That has been the role it has served for the entirety of its existence. It is also a relief from daily life on ImDeity. However, other than the PvP event on saturdays, it is the purest pvp-oriented part of the server. Don't get me started on the PvP world. For that reason, if nothing else, it cannot stray from its task, and cannot get auto-firing bows, or anything else. After all, if it's only about fairness, why not turn it into a spleef server? Or a server where everyone can fly? Or a server where people can hack? (yeah yeah clientside mod unfair but) My examples are extreme, but my point remains the same. DeityWar needs to fulfill the purest PvP aspect of the server. If we want equipment-based PvP, we can go to the pvp/factions world. DeityWar was pvp in the purest sense before kits were added, and although I see a need for a medium between the purest pvp (too boring for some) and equipment-based pvp (too much mining for others), I would love the return of the pure PvP that was once represented by DeityWar, whether DeityWar is that return or whether it is something else. That is my driving force behind everything I say- I would like some form of return on the pure PvP that used to be DeityWar. That is why I would like the removal of kits. I need- and I'm not the only one- some way to play the purest form of PvP. When I say pure, I mean completely skill- and tactic-based (no potions, no advantage-giving items like golden apples). Not that the current DeityWar is flawed beyond fire, Axeplode, and Cloud Warrior's sword.

 

Why? It's all about having fun and from all the different posts on this topic; people have varying ideas of what constitutes fun in war.

 

That quote is taken out of context. I simply mean that there must be something that fulfills that aspect for those of us (and I'm not alone, xKade actually pushed me to make this thread when I was too lazy to do so)who enjoy the purer PvP, and I do understand that some people enjoy the kit aspect of war, so that should stay for those people, but that could also be improved with the removal of axeplode (which failed to accomplish its creation goal) and some minor modifications. When kits were first introduced, many of the people on Overall War Top, the people who had played the most war, didn't like the change. I am basing everything that I have said on this thread from arguments mostly from in-game experiences. I have seen a shift in the people who play war, and I think that re-adding this may- not going to guarantee anything, I believe it will re-attract many of the people, and may also attract new players as well.

 

I remember reading somewhere that most minecraft war games uses leather armor because if you use better kind of armors like iron, the damage bows do are really weak. But I won't argue with you about this since that 1/2 a heart that leather armor does not block for fire damage seems so important to you.

"I never said that it should be just 1v1s, however." Good.

First you complained about fire aspect bows being unfair and then golden apples being unfair. Then you say "The point of DeityWar is not to be fair.". Exactly. But the beauty of it is, it is "fair" because both teams and all the players will have this unfair advantage, making it fair. Example: First team has Sharpness II, the second team has Sharpness I. This situation is definitely unfair. But if we give the second team Sharpness II, it becomes fair! That's the idea I'm trying to bring across to you right now. The only reason it seems unfair to you right now, is because you're thinking on a very individual level, like when using the WoW kit, it is unfair for melee users. But that's no ones fault but the individual himself, because he does not try to adapt, and start using the bow. True, it is forcing the individual to use the bow, but 1/6th chance of getting the WoW kit, just as it is 1/6th chance of getting the Juggernaut kit, which is bad for bow users!

Also, many of this stuff you're saying now is mostly personal opinions as you constantly say throughout your post and assumptions you've made by yourself. "It's called DeityWar just because there are two teams fighting. That's really it. There has never been any connection established between the two." I would like to know where you got this from. Although I made an assumption just like you, I think my assumption is more reliable, because DeityWar before kits also let you take cover to regen, it was not just with the introduction of fire aspect bows. Which is why I question the reason you are raising this point with fire aspect bows.

"I'd rather have someone who killed 10 people and died 6 times than someone who killed two people but never died, because the first person brought the team closer to the goal of winning." Would you rather have someone who killed 10 people and died 6 times (10-6), or five people who killed two people each but never died (10-0, good teamwork and not promoting heroism). Also notice that you say "I'd rather", also another personal opinion. Also, that's just an extreme example, you may say that the teams is unfair for getting 10-0, but that's the problems with DeityWar setting up teams, nothing else.

I am not arguing with you about golden apples for the sake of arguing, I am merely stating my personal opinion about them, just as you have. I respect your opinion, but I like golden apples, so I rather they stay in the game.

Once again, both teams have the stone axe. Also about fire, it's only 2 hearts per shot with fire if you shoot the guy, wait for the fire to burn out, and then shoot the guy again. The other guy is given the choice to run and eat a golden apple/hide for his health to regen again so they're on equal footing again, or stay and fight with a disadvantage. It is this difference in choice that makes the player, and it's not impossible to win the fight with the 2nd choice. Also if you're attacking the Fire aspect bow user with a stone axe, the battle will probably be over before the 2 hearts of fire damage even gets dealt.

I don't understand your examples with servers with spleefing and flying and hacking, so I'd just ignore that if you don't mind. I'm sure you had a pretty good point with it but it's not registering in my head.

Also, I'm rather disappointed in you saying that "I mean completely skill- and tactic-based (no potions, no advantage-giving items like golden apples)", I can imagine Sun Tze's Art of War (I've never read it before) writing "Thou shall not use grenades, or medicine to keep you alive. Thou shall not hide when dying to let you replenish your health, for it is cowardly. One must charge and kill the enemy so as to restore vigour! (Killing enemies give health)" Yes, that's what you sound like.

"I would love the return of the pure PvP that was once represented by DeityWar, whether DeityWar is that return or whether it is something else." Exactly, it does not have to be DeityWar that changes, but another mini-game, similar to the past DeitySpleef and DeityWar before kits, where it is 1v1, totally fair in your own personal opinion with unenchanted swords and bows. Now all you have to do is convince ImDeity

 

When I say that the point of the game isn't to be fair, I don't mean that it doesn't need to be fair. I'm saying that that's not the only thing that must be true. That's necessary, but not the point.

That's why I say no regen and health for kills. I understand that basic DeityWar does not solve this problem, so I offered a solution.

10-0? I said 2-0. Don't see your point.

See above about how point isn't fairness, just has to be fair. War has other purpose.

I'm saying that some people enjoy this. Fight with what you're given, obviously, but some people enjoy the more simple PvP.
"I would love the return of the pure PvP that was once represented by DeityWar, whether DeityWar is that return or whether it is something else." Exactly, it does not have to be DeityWar that changes, but another mini-game, similar to the past DeitySpleef and DeityWar before kits, where it is 1v1, totally fair in your own personal opinion with unenchanted swords and bows. Now all you have to do is convince ImDeity [/quote]
There might be a compromise somewhere, but I have to go to school.

 

"When I say that the point of the game isn't to be fair, I don't mean that it doesn't need to be fair. I'm saying that that's not the only thing that must be true. That's necessary, but not the point." The point of the game is to win for your team, well that's the original intention of the game. It is up to the individual, like how you like to play to kill people and others play to up their KDR. The reason why I brought up fairness in this, is because you kept saying that stuff in kits are unfair even though it's clearly fair because both teams have the same kits and hence they have both the same strengths and weaknesses.

"I'd rather have someone who killed 10 people and died 6 times than someone who killed two people but never died, because the first person brought the team closer to the goal of winning." Would you rather have someone who killed 10 people and died 6 times (10-6), or five people who killed two people each but never died (10-0, good teamwork and not promoting heroism). Also notice that you say "I'd rather", also another personal opinion. Also, that's just an extreme example, you may say that the teams is unfair for getting 10-0, but that's the problems with DeityWar setting up teams, nothing else.
Gotta read more carefully, all I'm saying is that KDR is important, because even if one person has gotten a K/DRs of 10:6, and his 4 teammates gets K/DRs 1:3, it will become 14:18, which means you lose the game. So everyone in the team has to do his part in lowering his/her KDR, or your team will lose. That's why KDR is important.

Yea, I don't get what being fair in DeityWar has to link with suddenly changing it into a server with spleefing. DeityWar is unfair, so change PvP to spleef? If both teams can fly then it sounds rather extravagant, but it's "fair", just really weird because it will cause some crazy wartime gameplay. And hacks I'm not even gonna touch on because that's ridiculous.

 

I dont mean the point when playing it, I mean the design purpose.

Any time I say I'd rather, it is because I am not going to claim that everyone agrees with me unlike some previous suggestions. I simply say that this is how I feel. I am not alone in these opinions, but when I say ¨I'd rather¨, I mean that it is not fact, it is an opinion, and I do feel that other people feel this way. I will not claim that everyone agrees.
On the actual topic, I think that KDR is still not pointed OVER k-d. k-d is how much closer you brought your team to winning. I'd rather have a 10-6 person than a 3-0 person, because they brought us closer to winning, which is the point of playing, is it not? That's why I don't care for KDR.

All I mean by that is the design purpose of war is more than just being fair. There is a reason that DeityWar is the way it is (PvP-oriented), and I simply mean that it cannot stray from its task and purpose in doing this.
Sent from my French Class Chromebook.

 

You don't care for KDR, same, but all I'm saying KDR is somewhat important if you wish to fulfill the original intention of the game, which is to win for the team.

But kits do not stray from being PvP-oriented, if that's what you mean. It's still Player versus Player.

 

When I said that it must stay PvP oriented, my goal was to get acknowledgement of the fact that there is a purpose behind DeityWar, and that it must continue to serve its purpose.
Regardless, Let me say one statement to summarize my standpoint.
Ultra-Important Statement Right Here!
Please make revisions to the kits regardless of whether there is some new introduction of a simpler, purer PvP. Use Saint's cloud warrior change and remove Axeplode, at the very least. I would prefer the drop of fire on Juggernaut bows (I can see Fatninja keeping fire), but I can understand that this may not happen. And please make an easy way for those of us who enjoy pure PvP to do so, like the old war did.

 

Woo. War is fun 1/6 (really 1/3 cuz wow is ok) of the time. That's SO exciting, I LOVE DeityWar!
Also, it's not just the kits - it's the EXTREME overuse of fire as a game mechanic. If you're going to have 3 of the 6 kits have fire, why not have 3 of the 6 kits be OP bow? Or OP sword? Or super-knockback? Get rid of fire entirely, and it becomes *somewhat* decent for those of us who, you know, actually want to have skill-based PvP in a PvP game.

 

Ok, I don't love fire, on bows its fun, but sword to sword fighting with fire stinks, I agree. So maybe lessened fire is ok, but your last statement is just what people are worried about. "No fire" is great for people who know how to play war, but what about the people who don't know how to pvp, or shoot, or aim, or drink health potions, or anything! War isn't about hard core pvp, it is, in my opinion, a game about fighting with swords and bows, learning about the Imdeity servers, and making new friends on the servers. War is another outlet the server offers, like the spleef or pvp event. It is a method of getting people to join and become active. Through war I got one of my best friends to join the server and try it out, and they are decently active today.

My point is that if you want hard core pvp, or a more consistent game play, find a pvp server. War is about pure fun, and team work. About mediocre players like me trying to up are pvp skills while playing with are friends. I totally agree that about half the kits could be revamped, but I would keep them slightly random, and OP as to allow the normal player a chance to get some kills and enjoy the game. (I know you can have while dying, but it really is more fun to kill people and die then just die.) If a player new to imdeity and war enjoys war then they will stay on the server and help contribute to it as a whole.

For the extreme players, who totally know what they are doing, I am not saying don't play war, just to try new things. As typo said about the "wow" kit it forces a different style of gameplay. So taking that a step further, if you rock with a sword focus on using bows, and same thing if you are good with a bow, try the sword, or axe, or potion of harming.Try sneaking around, undetected and surprise attacking everyone. The new kits encourage non skill based games so that all pvp skill levels can fight each other on evenish terms. In least thats my opinion.

So I would agree with you half way, Dragon. Make 3 kits non fire, skill based, and 3 totally random, OP, every skill welcome.Making the kits skill dependent is not the goal here, sure if your skilled you will do better no matter what, but lets let everyone have a chance to get kills.

Thank You for reading,
Musician10

 

Sorry thejacoborg, I did not mean that the server has no hardcore pvp experiences, just that war is not the number one place to look.

 

My point is that there is an imbalance in the kit playstyles, and, for those of us that do like "real, skill-based PvP", there is no incentive for us to play war. If you hate fire, well, you hate war automatically. This means that currently war only appeals to a certain subgroup of the people to whom it *should* be appealing. It really only appeals to anyone who likes the fire, since 50% of the kits use something that's overused everywhere and, quite honestly, although it requires strategy to use, it's strategy that a 7-year old could devise. Again, remove (or AT LEAST remove partially!) the fire, and you'll be appealing to a larger fanbase, meaning that there is more than (on average). If 50% of the time, it will involve something that I abhor and refuse to play with, I won't even bother playing war - heck, half of the time, I leave partway through because of how painfully redundant these kits are! A few other things. If, when you say "find a pvp server", you mean "find a factions server", then, well, NO. Factions servers are in NO WAY pvp (as in fighting) oriented. And, tbh, we DO go elsewhere! Why the hell do you think I'm inactive on Deity besides events/buildoff (which is only of particular interest atm due to its correlation to events)? There is NOTHING here for the people like Typo and I who, believe it or not, enjoy pvp (never woulda guessed, right?) "Let's let everyone have a chance to get kills." So, what you're saying is that the purpose of war is gratification to those who play regardless of how well they play. Welcome to first grade, buddy. ANYONE can be good at pvp, if they learn what they have to do and practice at it. Learn how to strafe, when to block-hit, when to full-power bowshot and when not to, sniping skillz, learn STRATEGY and you can fight pretty frickin' well regardless of your current skill level.

No. NO. That's like saying "There are also other PvP servers on which you can play, that's our excuse to avoid the issue of us changing the fundamentalist pvp thing we had and then decided to equalize because having people who are good win isn't fair". There is only ONE PvP event run on this server - guess who runs it? That would, in case you were unaware, be Typo. Nobody RUNS pvp events because war is supposedly filling that gap. Fine, you can spend thousands of dei in-game to make an event which very few people will attend due to time zones, conflicts, etc. Unlike war, it cannot be automated. You may as well get rid of the PvP event as well, and the server, for that matter, because it can be replicated 200x worse in the main world. Really, I don't understand how difficult it is to get that having 3 fire-based (yes, they're fire-BASED, because when there is fire it will be abused) kits and 3-non fire-based kits is EXACTLY like having 3 OP bow kits and 3 non-OP bow kits - don't have redundant kits (even if they're not redundant in ideology, they're redundant in application), have only UNIQUE kits so that there is not automatically a 50% chance of it being one of "those kits". Seriously. -_-

 

When I say the phrase "pure PvP", I mean "the most skill-based PvP". You can substitute one in for the other if you wish. I call it "pure" because it is simple and easy and still an awful lot of fun.

That too. Also, barry's suggestion from the front page is as heavenly as Saint's.
The only thing is,

With regards to snowballs/fishing rods/potions, I think that a kit and a "minor buff" should be chosen, the minor buff sometimes being nothing but occasionally being a splash potion, snowballs, or fishing rod.

 

Okay, since this is somehow *still* unclear.
PURE PvP is Bow and Sword PvP, where they are perfectly balanced so that they are equally effective and therefore any player of either tactic can survive. It is the balanced, easy-to-play, skill-based PvP. My point, at least, isn't that it needs to fulfill it, it's that it used to, and it was changed to become much less popular and not run 99% of the time. My point is that kits? They flopped in getting war to be more popular. All throughout the first weeks and months that after the kits were released, Deity continued to insist "These are first drafts." Well, look at all of the amazing revision that has gone into the kits for the dying minigame of war. As I said, there's a reason I'm inactive besides events. I know that Deity doesn't need to fulfill my hardcore/pure PvP needs. How did Musician state its intentions perfectly if this first grade mantra only applied once kits were added?

I agree 100%. We're giving you suggestions on how to do so, and, besides Saint, I don't hear any other ideas just, "Nah, these kits appeal to me (and the people to whom I talk), so everyone else is irrelevant". It was funny when, after the PvP event, I was in teamspeak when Rawr (a VERY skilled PvPer) encountered kits for the first time. I wish I had been recording it, because it was really funny to listen to. It was "What? Okay... What? Okay..." as he kept seeing what each kit did - if the point of war is to suck up to those people who aren't good at PvP and make the stats page not at all a show of how good you are - I mean, Driver's in the top 10 overall! Only kits could've caused that (jk <3). It *used* to be that war was a test of skill and teamwork, now it's just "can you hit them and run away". With Fatninja, it's more of a test of parkour skill than anything - I think the first deals more damage than the sword (or about the same). The reason we go to such extremes in our examples is to show "Yes, the kits need revision!1!!!1!1!1!", a concept which too many people don't see as necessary. Now, to go back to my last point as to how I think they should be revised, I'll provide 5 potential kits which could be used, including Saint's very good suggestion for Cloud Warrior.
Kit 1: Deity Base
Stone/Iron Sword
Bow (Infinity)
1 Arrow
5 Steak
[Optional: Golden Apple]
Armor: Full Prot I
Kit 2: Wow
Iron Sword
Bow (Infinity, Power IV)
1 Arrow
5 Steak
Healing Potion
Golden Apple
Armor: Full Projectile Prot I
Kit 3: Juggernaut
Diamond Sword (Sharp IV)
Bow (Infinity)
1 Arrow
5 Steak
Golden Apple
Armor: Prot I (Chest, Legs) Projectile Prot (Helmet, Boots)
Kit 4: Cloud Warrior
Iron Sword
Iron Axe (Knockback 1)
Bow (Infinity, Punch 1, Power 1)
5 Steak
[Optional: Golden Apple]
1 Arrow
[Optional: 1 Splash Potion of Harming] (it may not be needed due to the increased effectiveness of the weapons)
Armor: Prot I (Chest, Pants) Feather Falling II (Boots)
Kit 5: Pyro (or some other fire kit name):
Stone Sword (Fire Aspect II, Sharp I)
Bow (Infinity, Flame I)
5 Steak
(some one-time way to put your fire out - would be good mechanic - if possible, would be cool)
1 Arrow
Golden Apple
Armor: Prot I (Chest, Boots) Flame Prot I (Helmet, Pants)[/quote]

 

I think that Imdeity should make a whole server just for deity war :3

I like war, especially before kits, and it was why I joined the server and am now active on the main Imdeity Kingdoms server as well. It's just that I want more war