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War Kits- Noplzhalp

Discussion in 'Suggestions / Ideas' started by Typodestoyer, April 28, 2014.

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  1. owning254

    owning254

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    Sorry for this late reply,

    "If you hate fire, well, you hate war automatically. It really only appeals to anyone who likes the fire, since 50% of the kits use something that's overused everywhere and, quite honestly, although it requires strategy to use, it's strategy that a 7-year old could devise."

    Correction, you hate half of war automatically, and not to nitpick on small details, I highly doubt, that a 7 year old would use this strategy, he will be able to pull it off, but to devise it requires a slightly more advanced thinking (since even you don't use it, and I think you're older than 7 years old right?) Most 7 year olds would charge at you with a sword. Also, if you wanna call it the strategy of a "7 year's old", you are pretty much getting out-smarted (or "out-patienced"?) by a 7 year old. Not trying to insult all 7 year old children out there, some of them are smart.

    "If 50% of the time, it will involve something that I abhor and refuse to play with, I won't even bother playing war - heck, half of the time, I leave partway through because of how painfully redundant these kits are! A few other things. If, when you say "find a pvp server", you mean "find a factions server", then, well, NO. Factions servers are in NO WAY pvp (as in fighting) oriented."

    Okay, you and Typo keep saying that you have the majority behind your back, that PvP fanatics stopped playing wars because of kits. That most people on the top 10 before kits are supportive of your idea. I did not wish to say this because I did not want to act like a "big shot" ( it's hard to be one when you're just behind a computer screen), but I have been on the top 10 list consistently, mostly in first place (Ahhh this is so embarrassing, I'm trying to act cool when what I'm saying is such a nerd thing, I blame you guys for making me say this.) after kits were implemented, and before. And let me say this, I have never had my opinion asked before by the both of you. Also, majority of the people other than you and Typo writing on this thread don't want kits gone. This makes me question the accuracy of your statement.

    "And, tbh, we DO go elsewhere! Why the hell do you think I'm inactive on Deity besides events/buildoff (which is only of particular interest atm due to its correlation to events)? There is NOTHING here for the people like Typo and I who, believe it or not, enjoy pvp (never woulda guessed, right?) "Let's let everyone have a chance to get kills."

    My attention, whoosh! Out of the window. Because everyone are like you, PvP fanatics. That's why we go to war, not the PvP server. For a moment of relieving stress (and unfortunately for some, getting stressed), mostly just for a casual fighting session.

    "Nobody RUNS pvp events because war is supposedly filling that gap."

    This phrase cleverly insinuates that War is better than the "PvP" that you're talking about. Not sure if you're really against kits now. Welcome to the club!

    "You may as well get rid of the PvP event as well"

    To clarify, is this the weekly PvP competition you're talking about? But the PvP competition is my idea of what I think you're trying to bring across. I think you're trying to bring across a point, I kinda understand as well as don't understand. I think what you need is to try and convince Deity to create an automated game, where the PvP gameplay is similar to the tournament, but where it can be played on a regular basis. Not to try and get rid of kits, because apparently as seen on this thread, more people are supportive of kits than not.

    "Welcome to first grade, buddy. ANYONE can be good at pvp, if they learn what they have to do and practice at it. Learn how to strafe, when to block-hit, when to full-power bowshot and when not to, sniping skillz, learn STRATEGY and you can fight pretty frickin' well regardless of your current skill level."

    ANYONE can be good at dealing with flaming arrows. You just don't want to. Maybe some people are also just like you, and don't want to put in that same effort to be as good as you are. Also, to clarify what Jacob said, kits do make it easier to get kills, so what? Both teams will get the same kit, I repeat, Both. So weaker players will get kills, but stronger players will get more kills. This does not in any way make it less PvP, because the equipment both teams are given are the same, it is merely the strategy (or lack of) and the different skills you just mentioned that they employ that makes the player.

    "I was in teamspeak when Rawr (a VERY skilled PvPer) encountered kits for the first time. I wish I had been recording it, because it was really funny to listen to. It was "What? Okay... What? Okay..." as he kept seeing what each kit did"

    So are kits to make life easy for beginners? Or is it so difficult that even "skilled PvPer(s)" think it is too hard to use, make up your mind.

    "now it's just "can you hit them and run away". With Fatninja, it's more of a test of parkour skill than anything"

    Also, it is pretty safe to say that I play a lot more war than you do after kits were implemented, and NEVER, I mean NEVER, in any games have I seen anyone do that, just hitting someone to make him catch fire, then run so he can take that 2 hearts of flame damage, I mean really? Sure, people do run away from battles, but more likely because they're low on hearts, or they think that it is to their own disadvantage (2v1s). Not because of some stupid 2 hearts, which the guy will probably lose and more because of the rain of arrows that will follow him afterwards. And parkour skill. Like you said, it's still a skill.

    "I agree 100%. We're giving you suggestions on how to do so, and, besides Saint, I don't hear any other ideas just, "Nah, these kits appeal to me (and the people to whom I talk), so everyone else is irrelevant".

    And funny, because this whole time I thought this was an argument of you wanting to take away kits entirely (except for base kit and Wow, you stated it somewhere but I'm too lazy to find it), I merely was arguing to keep them in, because of how the kits appealed to everyone including you! (You like Wow and base kits) You were the one saying that everyone else is irrelevant especially the "first grade" people.

    Look at this:
    " If 50% of the time, it will involve something that I abhor and refuse to play with, I won't even bother playing war - heck, half of the time, I leave partway through because of how painfully redundant these kits are!"
    now look at this:
    "Hey, let's play a game. I'll flip this coin. If you get heads, you win." "Sure!" Tails comes up. "Amg, this game is so stupid! I quit!" *ragequits*

    That's how probability works, if it always worked in your favor, gambling would be everyone's career. Also, no one forces you to play. And while I don't think anyone idolizes the usage of fire weapons, not many people "abhors" it to the extent that you do.

    I actually don't mind Barry's list, but while some like the base kit, others would prefer the other different kits, so making the base kit more likely to appear would make it unfair to the other group, better to give them all a equal chance of getting picked, 1/6th wouldn't it? And I agree, there should be revision of the kits (preferably adding in new kits instead of changing the current ones, but I can't get everything I want), however, I am still in support of fire, vines, grass and anything that gets in the way, because they make things slightly difficult in the challenging kind of way.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2014
  2. Dragonslayer314

    Dragonslayer314

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    Okay, first of all, before I write my long response, I need to make sure you understand something - I do use the "7 year-old" strategy and I am good with fire kits. My point is that making it *too* easy for people to be good at war via kits with which you can shoot and hide way too much isn't a good thing.
    Now, for Long Post Part 1:
    If I am not going to like the first match 50% of the time, it is not worth it for me to leave whatever other server I'm playing on/whatever other thing I'm doing for the chance of having a fun war game according to my standards.
    We don't claim to have the majority behind our back, but what we do claim is that there are others like us, and that we're not alone. I mean, when only 5-6 people are usually signed up for war at any given time (imo due to the kits), it's not hard to get a majority now, is it?
    First of all, you take all of my quotes out of context. I was responding to Musician's statements which you fail to take into account when responding to them.
    See, you see part of my point (finally). If war is a PvP based game, and, as Vershye said, everything is to support main, why shouldn't war be related to the PvP event? Otherwise, it has no connection to the main world whatsoever. My point isn't that kits should be removed; I LIKE the idea of kits, if implemented well. The problem is that the kits are very imbalanced and they need to be revised, like the eternal promise which we keep receiving. Yes, it is the PvP event to which I am referring. My point is that, as I keep saying, fire is a game mechanic which is TOO easy to use. This brings me to my next point.
    I am good with dealing with flaming arrows. However, you are wrong in one assumption - stronger players do NOT get (significantly) more kills. Why? PvP skill caps off - you can only be so good. When it is SO INCREDIBLY EASY to be good, fewer people own on the scale which they normally do. Some may say this is a good thing, but all you're doing is making all of that time they spent training and learning to PvP worthless.
    I brought that up merely because it was so amusing to listen to it. It really didn't have any particular point, but the point it could have been argued to boost was the fact that people who have trained get nothing from it on war; it's less of a test of pvp skill and strategy than it is of how well you can camp, which, I believe, was not the intent of war. Believe me, I can camp the crap out of you guys if I want to, but I don't because I believe that pvp shouldn't be like that, sitting in noobholes hitting everybody once.
    (Cont'd on next post cuz it was too big initially, may be small enough now, but idc cuz I just cut it in half)
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2014
  3. Dragonslayer314

    Dragonslayer314

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    If you haven't seen it, that's because you haven't been looking. I played plenty of war post-kit implementation - OH WAIT IT NEVER STARTS BECAUSE NOBODY PLAYS IT ANYMORE. People don't just wait, they back up five-10 blocks and shoot you in the face repeatedly while you can't approach due to fire damage and the fact that it takes up like 40% of your screen (unless you have a "small fire" resourcepack, which shouldn't have the ability give you an advantage in war imo). I only have two words to say to that: confirmation bias. Also, you don't go to war to parkour -_-

    What I said, if you actually read my posts instead of just taking everything I said out of context, was that EITHER kits needed to be removed or undergo significant revisions - fire is a mechanic that makes a kit, it doesn't add to one. I actually suggested a kit selection in my last post - I would love to play all of those kits except pyro, but if kits like those were implemented, with actual thought as to how the gameplay styles would work out, I, and those like myself who like "pure" pvp, would still play it.

    See, what I said is that I don't play that game, because it's not worth it anymore when there's only a 50% chance of non-fire PvP. So don't berate me for complaining about playing that game, because that's my point. I don't play it anymore, because it's not worth it.

    Not really, because the point of the base kit is that everything is balanced. If you are going to complain about bow and sword being equal, then, well, I don't know what to say. You never responded to my kit improvement suggestions - you also never responded to my point that says that the fire kits are redundant (they are). Overall, I feel you took my quotes out of context and mutilated them to get a point across, and if you look at to what I was responding, what I said makes a lot more sense. However, now that you're beginning to understand my point, hopefully some revisions can be made to the kits to improve them and make war better for everyone.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2014
  4. thejacoborg

    thejacoborg

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    The purpose of kits is not to be fair or balanced. One of the reasons that we don't allow selecting kits is because then they would all need to be balanced with each other. The purpose is to provide a fun new twist to war. As of right now, all 8 players on the main server are signed up for war. Granted, some will leave as soon as it starts, but many will stay and play. I personally like the fire bows and swords, they serve to "stun" the enemy when hit. I have not been keeping numbers on this, but as I perceive the number of people playing war in relation to the number of people online has increased due to the kits. (At the same time, main server population has decreased, although overall server population stays the same with most folks having transitioned to playing on the FTB world).
     
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  5. Dragonslayer314

    Dragonslayer314

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    Well, first of all, this fails to account for the fact that the population decrease on main can partially be attributed to a disinterest in war. There are many people that, while doing other things, would sit AFK on the main world while waiting for war to begin, then when war came around, take a pause from whatever they were doing and do war. I know I'm not the only one who did that, and you would be surprised how many people leave war - if eight people are signed up, the chances that it runs aren't amazingly high. Again, the purpose of the kits doesn't have to be balanced, but the distribution thereof should be balanced (again, see previous kit recommendations for kit changes)
     
  6. thejacoborg

    thejacoborg

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    The fact is, just because you don't like some of the kits in war does not mean that the majority of other players don't enjoy it. Every player to whom I have talked other than you and typo is either indifferent to, or in support of the new kits.
     
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  7. Dragonslayer314

    Dragonslayer314

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    I'm not saying the kits are bad, I'm saying that idealogically the kits should be balanced - fire is a redundant mechanic, and because axeplode, fatninja and juggernaut all use it, despite the differences in the other equipment, they all have the same playstyle: fire abuse, fire abuse, fire abuse. Juggernaut differs most from the other two, mainly because its weapon isn't a 5 or 6-shot, where you're bound to lose a significant amount of health to fire during the fight. Again, there has been no logical reasons for why the kits shouldn't be redone (to some extent at least), just "eh, I don't think enough people agree with you." Yes, because you asked so many of the people of the ImDeity community before kits were implemented in the first place. The truth is, for people who like fire as a game mechanic, it doesn't need to dominate war and create a campy, nooby playground. For people who don't like fire, it shouldn't be so prominent as a game mechanic that it overrides everything else for the kits in which it is implemented (yes, it does, if you're denying that clearly you haven't played war enough)
     
  8. Tallpines

    Tallpines

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    In my opinion, the fire helps PREVENT spawn camping by making it easier to fend off the campers.
     
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  9. Dragonslayer314

    Dragonslayer314

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    All that fire does for spawncamping is mean that, unless you have a "small-fire" resource pack, you can't see half your screen when you come down from spawn. The reason fire really doesn't help the one who is being spawncamped is the same reason Wow doesn't really help that much - the one person you manage to shoot before you die just goes and heals up, while the other 3-4 obliterate you from every other possible angle.
     
  10. owning254

    owning254

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    "If you haven't seen it, that's because you haven't been looking. I played plenty of war post-kit implementation - OH WAIT IT NEVER STARTS BECAUSE NOBODY PLAYS IT ANYMORE."

    That's funny, because I wouldn't notice someone running at me, hitting me one time, and stupidly not pressing his advantage of surprise, choosing to run away so that I can take 2 hearts of damage, while I look at him through the crosshair of my bow and let loose my arrow feeling totally dumbfounded. Wouldn't have noticed. Also, I'm pretty sure matches still go on, because I still play them, and regarding you playing plenty of war post-kit, I can confidently say that I played more games than you post-kit implementation. So if you want to use that logic, I'm more reliable. Also, when I said parkour skill, I did not say it was the only skill, I merely said that it was one more skill added to the list you came up with.

    "What I said, if you actually read my posts instead of just taking everything I said out of context, was that EITHER kits needed to be removed or undergo significant revisions - fire is a mechanic that makes a kit, it doesn't add to one. I actually suggested a kit selection in my last post - I would love to play all of those kits except pyro, but if kits like those were implemented, with actual thought as to how the gameplay styles would work out, I, and those like myself who like "pure" pvp, would still play it."

    My bad if you feel that I took your words out of context, I merely thought you were contradicting yourself in several separate parts of my arguments which I clearly stated in my own, and which I thought could be connected to each other. I am merely stating that I do not want kits removed, and I don't want fire removed. Changes in the form of more kits (not changing the current ones, but adding new ones) like the ones you stated would be welcome to me, but the things like vines and other obstacles which Typo mentioned in the first post should be kept.

    "See, what I said is that I don't play that game, because it's not worth it anymore when there's only a 50% chance of non-fire PvP. So don't berate me for complaining about playing that game, because that's my point. I don't play it anymore, because it's not worth it."

    I am not trying to berate you, but the way you sound really ticked me off, because you expected everyone to think the way you do, that flame is terrible and everyone wants to play this "pure PvP" you keep talking about, which is just ridiculous, because obviously not that many people think the way you do, and the fact that you mentioned this "Yes, because you asked so many of the people of the ImDeity community before kits were implemented in the first place." because this applies to you as well, you claim that lots of people don't like kits, and would rather the old War without kits. This thread is an avenue for us to share our opinions, and so far the majority have agreed that fire and kits should be kept, hence I think we've asked more people of the ImDeity community than you have about whether kits should stay, thank you very much. Also, your statement sounds exactly like the people who come to the main server asking for OP immediately, and when refused, they go "I don't play it anymore, because it's not worth it."

    "Not really, because the point of the base kit is that everything is balanced. If you are going to complain about bow and sword being equal, then, well, I don't know what to say. You never responded to my kit improvement suggestions - you also never responded to my point that says that the fire kits are redundant (they are)."

    Your definition of balance is the base kit, while my definition of fairness is letting both teams have the same kit. I responded to your kit improvement suggestions, I want the current kits to remain, and I want new kits in addition instead of changing the current ones. Essentially not improving the kits, but to add more kits.

    Also, I never responded to your point saying that fire kits are redundant? The conversation between me and Typo was me saying why I liked fire kits,

    "With Fire Aspect bows, you have the option of not pulling your bow to the maximum so you can deal just the flame damage only instead of the impact damage of the arrow. This creates a dynamism because it gives you that half a second to dodge the incoming arrow from the opponent or whatever. Yet if you don't charge your bow, you might not get the distance/power added to that single arrow to reach your opponent if he is too far away. Also DoT is DoT, single burst of damage is better in some situations so you won't be relying on fire damage all the time."

    "Leather armor is so strong. Fire arrows OP because it ignores leather armor. And good point there, the map suddenly becomes crucial to the war along with the kit which makes it more exciting like in real wars, where the terrain is important. This makes the map seem more important than simply just "another arena". Thank you for pointing that out! Also, you always seem to forget that both teams will have fire aspect, so in Inferno, both teams will not have water to save themselves from the fire."

    "The flame is merely a reward, before you can set them on fire you must actually hit them. Also the person who's on fire could do the exact same thing and hide until the fire is extinguished and he's healed up. This could be considered as cowardice, or strategy. It really is up to the individual." Also, if you want to argue that hiding is cowardice and is stupid and for 7th graders, then maybe you'd want to think about how charging while you're on fire being clever? I'm not trying to stop anyone from charging while they're on fire, just wanted to throw this out there.

    I think you're the one whose coming up with illogical reasons, you constantly contradict yourself, and come up with very very personal reasons as to why you don't like this or that. One of this is always claiming that people don't play enough war, or play war less than you. You state regularly that you don't play war much now anymore because of the new kits, so I probably play much more War with kits than you do. I was on DeityWar Top before kits were implemented as well. Also, you claim that many people would prefer no kits, when clearly from the amount of support kits are getting in this thread, you are wrong in saying that kits get very little love. This makes me feel that you've been making up many of these "facts" which is why I totally disagree with you.

    " Again, the purpose of the kits doesn't have to be balanced, but the distribution thereof should be balanced"

    So 50% - 50% of getting a fire kit versus not getting a fire kit isn't good enough for you? 50-50 doesn't sound fair? Please refer to coin example from before.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2014
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  11. Typodestoyer

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    balance=!=fairness
    just saying
    no. its not. the same way that OPbow/notOPbow is 1/6:5/6, fire should have the same equal chance.
    There's a reason that Barry doesn't suggest "all kits should have OP bow because i like it"- same with fire. One dynamic, one kit.
    The only reason I put the first things in is because the people who often make the arenas aren't necessarily the ones who play in them the most, and they fail to bother with changing them (cough deity cough). I simply wrote those as guidelines for anyone who designs anything PvP-based.
    1. They don't just run off, they run away a little bit so you can't light them on fire and then shoot you while its hard for you to see. Some people can deal with this, but its still an equalizer. Kits should not make the game easier, they should make it more interesting.
    2. Matches barely go on. Even at peak times ON WEEKENDS, at most 10-15 people play (excluding all-server war obviously). This = not good.
    3. I highly doubt you've played more war than I have since kits came out. There is no way to know, at least. Unlike Dragon, I play through the war, because I still enjoy fighting, even if it isn't perfect.
     
  12. Dragonslayer314

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    "So 50% - 50% of getting a fire kit versus not getting a fire kit isn't good enough for you? 50-50 doesn't sound fair? Please refer to coin example from before."
    Yes, 50% - 50% chance of getting a fire kit. As I keep trying to get you to understand, that is no different from having a 50% chance of having an OP bow, or a 50% chance of having an OP sword - it's a 50% chance of forcing a playstyle upon those who may not want to use that playstyle, and because, as you claim you have but still haven't refuted the fact that all fire kits play the same (with the slight exception of juggernaut). They all serve the same function in the war kit list, and therefore are redundant with each other.
    Also, I really don't know how to explain the thing about fatninja - they don't GET the element of surprise because there's only like 6 people in the entire war, meaning there is no diversion for them to get the sneak attack. If you look at the number of kills during a fatninja game, the number of bow kills FAR surpasses the number of sword kills despite the fire on the sword. Why? Oh yeah, because people set you on fire and camp. That's also probably because fatninja's sword is a 6-shot. This means that, if you go into melee, you will likely take 3-4 hearts damage from the fire during/after the fight unless you are near water. That is way more than necessary (That's 1/3 of your life gone without even accounting for this hits which you will take).
    "I am not trying to berate you, but the way you sound really ticked me off, because you expected everyone to think the way you do, that flame is terrible and everyone wants to play this "pure PvP" you keep talking about, which is just ridiculous, because obviously not that many people think the way you do, and the fact that you mentioned this "Yes, because you asked so many of the people of the ImDeity community before kits were implemented in the first place." because this applies to you as well, you claim that lots of people don't like kits, and would rather the old War without kits. This thread is an avenue for us to share our opinions, and so far the majority have agreed that fire and kits should be kept, hence I think we've asked more people of the ImDeity community than you have about whether kits should stay, thank you very much. Also, your statement sounds exactly like the people who come to the main server asking for OP immediately, and when refused, they go "I don't play it anymore, because it's not worth it.""

    I STILL have never claimed to have everyone behind me. My point there was frustration at the inconsistency of the staff for being willing to make a change without significant prior player input, then doing nothing when player input is actually received. And, again, you STILL put words into my mouth. I. Like. The. Idea. Of. Kits. However, the proportions of encouraged playstyles should be balanced! Otherwise, see typo's point about wow vs. notwow.
    Also, note some things I've taken out of this thread. Now, I will claim to have some people behind me, because, well, if you look at this thread, you can see what people have said regarding this, and if you stick them into "Keep current kits" and "change kits in some way", these are the groups. NOTE: I know you have mentioned adding new kits, but there aren't that many playstyles, and it would STILL need to involve removing fire from some of the other kits as you really don't need multiple kits per playstyle.
    People who say that SOMETHING needs to/should change about kits:
    • Typodestoyer
    • Dragonslayer314
    • Danny
    • Barry
    • Saint
    • Driver
    • Versh (said they should change as needed, implies that there is a POSSIBILITY for a need of change, putting on this side for now)
    • Tef
    • Musician
    People who say that kits are absolutely fine where they are, regardless of whether they believe that a little change may be nice:
    • Owning
    • Jaco
    • Sapkins
    People whose opinions I don't completely understand (on which side of these two categories):
    • Tallpines
    • Majora
    EDIT: No longer editing this list, too much work.
    Nice majority you have there, owning. Also, clearly you didn't read my example kits. I still kept a fire kit, even though I personally dislike it. Why? Because some people DO like it, and I understand that. However, just because some people like it doesn't mean that it should dominate the war platform in kits. Here are some ratios of the current kits' playstyles:
    OPBOW:NotOPBOW - 1:5
    OPSWORD:NotOPSWORD - 1:5
    OPKNOCKBACK:NotOPKNOCKBACK - 1:5
    Perfect Balance:Not Perfect Balance - 1:5
    OPFIRE:NotOPFIRE - 3:3
    Notice something? Of course you do, because fire dominates the kits, and although it is paired with different other things, as I keep saying, any kit with fire has the same general playstyle. So yeah, but no.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2014
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  13. Tallpines

    Tallpines

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    War irl isn't fair. In Deitywar, use what you have to you advantage. Would you rather fight with a wood hoe than a fire bow?
     
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  14. Typodestoyer

    Typodestoyer

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    Use what we have to our advantage, yes. So we have to optimize what we have to make the experience the best possible, because everyone will use what they have to their advantage. That's why fire needs to be limited- for any kit that has it, it is the advantage that will be used, and so the kits become too much the same in execution.
     
  15. Driver_X

    Driver_X

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    Warning: Another large post

    I have tested Dragon's kits and compared them to current kits, here are my thoughts on them:

    Base Kit: I like what you did here, changing current's full Fire Protection I to full Protection I, weapons untouched. Imo, fire protection adds nothing, could be removed; For the addition of Protection I, it changed weapons damage from 2,5 hearts to 2 hearts - longer fights, fine by me.

    Wow: Bow was double nerfed, Power went from V to IV, at the same time armor becomes full Projectile Protection I, difference from Sword-Bow damage falls from 4 hearts (2,5-6,5) to 1,5 (2,5-4). I agree that bows should be weakened but this is too much.

    Juggernaut: Blast Protection armor was changed to Protection and Projectile Protection armor, Flame from bow was removed and now uses Diamond swords instead of Iron. I would call this 'Wow: Sword Edition'. I have seen some say the sword from Juggernaut is op already and what you did was increase it's power turning it into a Diamond one. To 'balance' it, Protection is add to armor so, in the end, difference is from 2 hearts to 2,5 per hit. Problem is that the real balancing feature of this kit was Flame bow (so the Juggers can't approach that easily) which was removed, add the fact that bows have no extra power and armor now has Protection I and Projectile Protection at different pieces, bows, that used to deal 2 to 4 hearts damage (considering fire) now deal only 1,5 against a 4,5 sword. "Wow:Sword Edition".

    Cloud Warrior: The strength increase is very welcome, though bow got a little bit stronger compared to sword (so it is not exactly the same kit with extra power) and, from my view, sword should keep the knockback as this is what makes this kit different from others and should not be put in second place, placed on a weaker weapon. I don't like knockback that much, but the change from level II to I should be enough.

    Pyro: Balanced kit comparing sword-bow damage, basically base kit with fire on both weapons, I like the kit but question the reasoning behind it, as follows:

    From your kits this is what I get:
    - You don't like fire at all, you chose to remove it from all kits, even when it is a clear strategic/balancing feature for Juggernaut, and moved it to a separated single kit, I wouldn't be surprised if your intention is just to isolate it and quit war when that kit comes up;
    - Your definition of 'Pure Pvp' skillset has swords over bows. Op bow from Wow was double weakened (-power +armor) and op sword from Juggernaut was double upgraded(+power -bow), so the problem here is not the 'op' itself, but what weapon is op.

    The center of problem here is "Pure Pvp" and it's skill book. When I first read that what came to my mind was what Vershye said, two unarmored guys punching each other to death in a flat white arena. Pvp skills, in my view, include more than charging with a sword or standing with a bow:
    Parkour: Be it to run away from adversaries or to reach them faster and attack from unusual places/positions;
    Hiding: To make ambushes or heal (why not?);
    Sneaking: Get behind enemies taking advantage of unused, dark, lower or higher paths (requires a good study of map, parkour and to know where most people are and what are they focused/looking at);
    Rations/Buffs management: Where and when to use potions and golden apples (I don't like the apples, though).

    Why am I pointing this, 'Pure Pvp' is an abstract term, it could mean different things to different people, same as 'real skill', what skills are you talking about? The ones you have or value? That is my guess so far and this is why I this is what is being discussed at the moment (rather than kits themselves), the proposed changes are way too biased for me (and for Owning, I guess) and I (we) can't agree with them because of that diversion of thoughts.

    I have also tested my ideas for kits:

    Base Kit: Fire Protection adds nothing, bringing bias to me (xd), it removes power from the 'special' through-lava arrows I try to do (remove eet now!). The extra protection suggested by Dragon is fine, it will mean longer battles and, with 'weaker' weapons, maybe golden apples regen will be more effective;

    Wow: It's feature is the op bow and should stay like that, my 'balancing' suggestion is to lower it's Power to IV instead of V (6,5 hearts to 5,5) and add a splash potion of swiftness I, this would make it harder for bows to hit people and actually require some bow skill from shooters;

    Juggernaut: The op sword is not as op as Wow bow, so no need to weaken it. If the problem here is Flame bow, make it Punch I instead, so it is not that easy for swordsmen to go Lerrroy on snipers. Blast Protection for armor is there for nothing, imo, adding Feather Falling I boots should help a bit with knockback fall damage without changing anything for sword;

    Cloud Warrior: The way SaintThunder suggested, except that I'd keep Knockback I on sword instead of making it optional, knockback is the special feature of this kit and people should adapt to it, defending or attacking;

    FatNinja: I have no feels for this kit, my opinion is that basic bow + Swiftness potion work in favor of sword, plus it's Fire Aspect, it would be sword oriented if sword was anything but wooden. The special feature from this is the potion, if Wow got be as I suggested, this kit wouldn't have anything to add and could be removed. I am indifferent to this;

    Pyro: Although I don't like fire, I like this kit idea and, if Juggernaut's is switched to knockback, it would be the only kit with fire. Bow and sword are ok (2,5-2 damage), sword is a little weaker but has Fire II to balance it so fire is it's special feature. Good kit, hot battles.

    Axeplode: It was said this kit is not what it should be (and never will be) so it should be removed, though I like it's harming potion, which (maybe) would be removed from Cloud Warrior (if it's weapons are strengthened), that would remove all harming potion kits and I would suggest the creation of a potion focused kit:

    Alchemist: Stone sword and basic bow, armor with Projectile Protection I and II on helmet and boots. 2 splash harming I potions, 1 splash healing I, 1 splash weakness potion (low time), no golden apples, some food and an enchanted knockback II stick.
    :rolleyes:

    There you go :p
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2014
  16. Typodestoyer

    Typodestoyer

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    Honestly, you put too much thought into this :p
    The revisions for wow and juggernaut are meant to make Juggernaut the anti-Wow. Keep that in mind. If you are good at Wow, you should almost never get touched with a sword. The same should be true with Juggernaut and bows- its the OP sword kit, if Wow's bow is 2 shots, do the same with Juggernaut's sword.
    Absolutely keep Knockback on sword for cloud warrior- you shouldn't be able to avoid it :p
    Alchemist: A classic type of kit that most servers have and that would be great for DeityWar.
    Pyro: Fulfills fire needs.
    Axeplode: Buhbye.
    Fatninja- Speed (sword) PvP is really fun, so there needs to be something with this.
    One thing I'd like to say about "pure PvP" is the difference between skills and tactics. Tactics is deciding how to fight with what you are given, skills is being able to fight. Many people have tactics but not skills, and so the kits act as an equalizing measure in some places. Pure PvP is skill-based; however, no tactics just makes it a skill test, so some tactics are necessary. Having both a bow and a sword and having terrain are two examples. "Pure" PvP does not have swords over bows- it tries to balance them, because bows are so effective in general when used correctly. Remember: the kits aren't supposed to be "balanced" among themselves, they are supposed to replicate and encourage various styles of PvP. For every Wow, there must be a Wow:Sword Edition as you called it.
     
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  17. Dragonslayer314

    Dragonslayer314

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    Thank you for finally providing some feedback on my suggestions. A few things.
    • Punch on Juggernaut: YES. I didn't exactly understand the purpose of the fire, but ow it makes sense. The only issue with that is that just like Wow is OPBOW Juggernaut should be OPSWORD. I say make juggernaut's sword diamond (maybe even sharp 5) so that, like Wow, it's a 2-shot. The diamond sword's half-heart difference in damage actually is severely limited by the Protection armor - it's not a significant change. The reason I actually think Juggernaut's sword should increase more, because if Wow's bow can deal 7 hearts...
    • I do like fire as a game mechanic - as long as nobody deludes themselves saying it's not all the kit is (because it inevitably is). I would love to play the pyro kit, but it's frustrating to see it clashing with the purposes of other kits.
    • I like the idea of speed potion on Wow. It kind of nerfs Wow with relation to its OP bow like Juggernaut's bow does with its OP sword. Great feedback, well-thought out, and, for once on this thread, a suggestion for improvement instead of a simple "you're wrong".
    • Removal of Axeplode, Fatninja: YES. Axeplode's reasoning is clear, and Fatninja's purpose would, as you said, be partially taken over by the new Wow pot. The other thing is that I think that IF fatninja still exists, it should be 2 splash speed II pots for strategic use w/whatever other changes I implemented.
    • Alchemist: YES. A new, not-already-abused style of PvP. That's a new one.
    • I do agree as well with the knockback on Cloud Warrior's sword and the other changes suggested.
    • You are wrong in one thing: I do NOT prioritize swords over bows. I don't really prefer either (probably better with a bow, in fact), but I definitely don't want the sword to be underpowered as is the case with Fatninja.
    Overall, a very well-thought-out, well-organized reproof. I do agree with typo, though. You didn't need to put so much time into it, though :p

     
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  18. tefphoenix

    tefphoenix

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    Actually Dragon, I've expressed that I'd like the kits tweaked a bit as well. However there's another post devoted to that.
     
  19. Dragonslayer314

    Dragonslayer314

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    I didn't see anything in this thread, sorry. I'll change your side xD
     
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  20. Musician10

    Musician10

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    Yes, I see you put me into the "People whose opinions I don't completely understand"And I must say I am very honored.:D

    My post was more of a "ok that statement just doesn't work heres why..." than an opinion. If I had to say an opinion I would recommend changes. I have reasons why, but many of them have been stated by you or Typo. If you look at the start of my post you will see I express my feelings for fire on swords and bows.Fire on swords bad, bows better. I understand that may be confusing though since I proceeded to say "come on thats not the point of war make it even".

    Drivers X's kits/kit changes seem wonderful ,and I look forward to playing with some or all of them, but it seems to me like these will be something on Imdeity that people will beg for a change. Not really my point, just wanted to clear up any confusion on my previous post. I am reading this again and I am confused so I say again "I like change but some change"

    Thanks and sorry for the confusion,
    Musician10
     
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