War Kits- Noplzhalp

I am undeniably one of the most active people who plays war at the moment, and I am not alone when I say that the current kits do not improve the game at all. Let me give a rundown of the issues of each kit.
They are very simple.

Base kit: Great kit
Fatninja- Fire
Cloud Warrior- Knockback
Juggernaut- Fire
Wow- Actually a fine kit, fun to play, but it forces a combat style- I enjoy this kit (2nd fave)
Axesplode- Crappy axe (woo like a wooden sword except i can't block) and fire.

Now, I personally feel as though war would be better without kits, and I know that I am not alone in this respect. I know for a fact that I am not the only one who has been waiting for some changes- ever since kits were released we were reminded that this was "only a first draft" and that "things were gonna change". Well, I've been waiting for the change, and it hasn't come, so...

Now, why drop kits entirely? The answer is simple. The simplicity and reliability of war was its strength. The war top shows this- kdr measures your skill. However, with kits, you can't rely on having a good time.
For example: Let's say I'm a bow focused guy (not referencing anyone). I might enjoy the Axesplode, Wow, and Base kits if this were true. Based on this, I have a 50% chance of not enjoying myself in war. That is not good. If war has no kits, everyone will know what to expect, and kdr/kills measure your skill accurately (and almost, almost replace the need for a pvp arena).

Now, I can see where this comes into issues- the all-server war. Many of those players may- may- enjoy the kits. If you want, have kits for then. However, for those of us who play war often, many of us feel that kits did not work out.
I can say that, of the 13 or so people who signed up for war one game this evening, only 7 people actually played the first round. Not good. This is not just a "dying-off" of war- now I rarely see people who enjoy PvP correspond with people who play war, and I'd like to bring the numbers back up.

Let me end with a list of things that most PvPers don't like to fight with:

1. Knockback
2. Bonemeal/grass
3. Vines
4. Fire
5. Anything that gets in the way

Just a general guideline for whenever anyone designs anything PvP oriented.

 

I wouldn't be too sure about #1, Knockback is incredibly useful, and when I still had my sword business up, that was requested often.

 

It's fine for 1v1s. Knockback I is useful in those cases. However, most people dislike it (I don't mind Knockback I, it's good for combos), and
a) With lots of people, you can't concentrate on one person w/knockback.
b) You don't know whether swords were for PvP or PvE primarily (most were for PvP, but still)
c) Punch bows deny any chance of sword PvP more than the knockback.
People as a rule dislike knockback, although I'm fine with knockback 1. It has its uses, but usually only when paired with some non-knockback item.

 

I would keep current kits with minor tweaks, just with different chances to be used:

Base kit: 50%
Fatninja: 5%
Cloud Warrior: 5%
Juggernaut: 15% and no fire
Wow: 15%
Axeplode: 5%

Remaining 5% for some new kit using some weak weapons but bunch of potions, snowballs, fishing rods, etc.

 

The thing is, people didn't complain about the same weapons, or at least not everyone did. The variety that is brought to war is not the weapons- it is the people with whom you play and the map. I don't mind axe/sword difference. It does bring variety. I would be fine with some kits. However, the thing is, fire still sucks on the other kits (fatninja, juggernaut) if axeplode were to be removed. Now, Fatninja is a great kit minus the fire, and juggernaut allows for interesting playstyle. I would slightly reduce the sharpness on Juggernaut, but that's just me.
For anyone wondering why I have such a rant against fire- it encourages "hit-and-hide" tactics, as you hit them once and wait for them to take damage from fire before hitting again.

Look at the numbers for Barry's thing, though. Base kit is favored, which is great for the (no offense) "regular" pvpers, who just want to fight and have a great time. Juggernaut and wow are similar and simple, and so they have equal probabilities. I would increase fatninja personally were fire to be removed. Axeplode is a joke currently as you said, so maybe more of a 50%-15%-15%-10%-10% distribution. With regards to snowballs/fishing rods/potions, I think that a kit and a "minor buff" should be chosen, the minor buff sometimes being nothing but occasionally being a splash potion, snowball, or fishing rod.

Two things- I would reduce effectiveness of sword to be a stone sword, b/c that's same as axe, otherwise axe would be rarely used, and I would also get rid of power on bow, b/c bow can always deal more damage than sword in general, shouldn't be more effective than base kit.
Last thing- I hate golden apples with a passion, and I don't think anyone would really be sad if they are gone

 

The different kits force the player to adapt their fighting style to the kit which is available. This can make war harder and thus more interesting. Some of the kits help even out the playing field between a newer player and one who is more experienced. Both players benefit this way. It can be frustrating for someone who is new and doesn't know war well to be killed frequently by veteran players. And the veteran players face more of a challenge.

 

The varying degrees of how powerful the bow is (WoW kit has the strongest bow) to how powerful the sword is (Juggernaut kit has the extremely strong sword) in all the different kits allow for different playstyles, whether you prefer using the bow, or whether you like using the sword. It also gives something fresh in every round, compared to always using the same bow and sword. For example, I prefer using the bow most of the time, but when the Juggernaut kit comes into play I will tend to use the sword more often even though I tend to lag and miss a lot in sword battles just because it is so much stronger than bows. Also in terms of fairness, everyone gets the same kit, so there is "fairness" in that respect, although if you favor the sword the WoW kit might not be fair to you and likewise if you prefer using the bow, the Juggernaut kit is not likely to be favourable for you. However, DeityWar does not force you to do anything. It always gives you a choice, whether you wish to be use your favorite weapon and be handicapped or be rewarded for using your favorite weapon.

Also the fire aspect and knockback adds to the gameplay mechanics of DeityWar, although there is indeed lag for some if not most players when these two come into play, (knockback especially, with rubberbanding and such. Fire aspect not so much) Fire aspect lets people decide between letting the flame do its damage, so no need to pull back the bow all the way when you can just set the person on fire and let it do DoT, or do the vanilla way of charging the bow to its maximum to do the full damage. Knockback helps bow-players a lot, knocking back people who charge at you so you can get another arrow in or lets you disorient the enemy so that you can make the next shot an accurate one. Either way, it is debatable whether the pros outweigh the cons for Knockback and Fire aspect (Gameplay versus Lag issues), but since I think almost everyone including me gets the same lag issues of rubberbanding in kits like Cloud Warrior, it is almost fair, because everyone except those with the best computers won't get such problems (And let's face it, people with better computers are more likely to win, this possibility is apparent in most games, so either way they will have the advantage)

In conclusion, I am in full support of kits, although regarding flame aspect and knockback I am on the fence, but leaning towards keeping them still just to give a bit of flavor to an otherwise normal PvP experience.

*Edit*

Ahhh I just read this part after writing my message, and why exactly is this a problem? You can choose to do the same thing as well. The flame is merely a reward, before you can set them on fire you must actually hit them. Also the person who's on fire could do the exact same thing and hide until the fire is extinguished and he's healed up. This could be considered as cowardice, or strategy. It really is up to the individual.

Also about the golden apples, you could use it immediately for the absorption buff. I like using it after winning a battle so I can be ready for the next one. Or you could be killed without the chance of not using it. Once again another choice for you to make. Yay for free will!

 

I actually don't mind the kits XD since they were put in my kill score has gone up some Lol and it helps my strategy depending on which kit I have...I do see knockback as counter productive...but as long as I have my trusty bow I'm happy
....I actually like the axeplode kit Lol I'm not very picky it just shows that you need to show or skills more and be able to adapt with each kit

Keep it Sappy

 

I fully agree with tef here, However I like many others have a strong hate for the knockback class

 

Uhh, I would say that with Wow kit, it forces you to use a bow more often if you want to FIGHT and not to suicide... It also forces a kit upon you...
But I think your point is that you can still technically play the way you want to, and I disagree, as suiciding into people who play the kit the way it was intended to be played is not actually playing the way you want to, unless your goal is to suicide. Also,

so... force? yeah, kinda. Why should player have to change what works for them? That's what bugs me. If I want to camp with a bow, I should be able too, and if I want to sword rush, I should be able to do that too without clearly having no chance at survival.

I'm not saying that people don't choose to do the same thing. My point is especially obvious with the Fatninja kit. The wooden sword is very ineffective as a weapon on its own compared to the bow, so the best strategy with Fatninja is to run in with surprise, hit them, and run. This is not a pvp tactic. This is cowardice at its finest. Fire lets you deal a lot of damage for very little work. Fire sword also makes PvP hard for any new players- fighting someone good when you're on fire (even if they are) is very difficult. My main issue with fire is on the bows. Fire bows cause the best strategy to be "shoot and hide". Ugh. Games with fire take a long time, because most of the game is "the waiting game", which is not why I go to war. When people wonder why my KDR is as low as it is, it's simple: I don't play PvP to get a good KDR, or to survive. I play to kill. People often will hide and regenerate health, but this only should happen when dying is important.

That's just a personal thing. First of all, using it or being killed before you get the chance is in no way a choice. Second of all, I simply said this because war's greatest asset was the fact that all fights would be on an equal level to an extent, but with golden apples, the extra two hearts can turn the tide. If someone is low on health and they get killed, they don't feel too upset. However, if someone was at full health and attacks someone who had just eaten their apple and loses because the other person has more than 10 hearts, well, anger can ensue. Golden apples are a personal preference, as I can't stand the inequality to a "fair" fight that they bring.

Next person:

How do the kits make it easier for new players but harder for people who have learned to optimize the kits? Doesn't make sense... Also, if you think it's frustrating for someone who doesn't know war well to be killed by veteran players, at least with base kit it's a matter of "knowing PvP" and not "knowing war". If I were a new player playing Wow kit, I would get destroyed. I think I can safely say that spawncamping has increased dramatically with the release of kits, and this is because the gap between the most experienced and the worst PvPers has widened, not closed. Also, I dislike anything that evens the playing field between a newer player and a more experienced player. The way for that to happen should be hard work, not kits. On a side note, there is a reason that I do not play on the PvP world, even though many (COUGH GAWKAN COUGH) want me to be a fear-inspiring member, and that is because I feel that equipment buffs take away the purity of PvP. I like the way that the PvP event runs- simple, clean PvP. Not the fire-knockback-OPweapon war that we currently have. The greatest asset of most PvP is the simplicity. It'd be like giving Speed for spleef. Sure, it makes it easier, but why? Why does it need to be easier?


Just a random thought, I think that it would be interesting to (were fire to be removed) turn natural regeneration off and give health for a kill. This would decrease spawncamping and waiting, and would increase the amount of actual PvP that goes on.

 

I have made a post about my opinion on kits on the very thread about them, even though I don't really like the kits the way they are, I'd like them to stay. Only thing I'd add to that is to remove Knockback, at least from bows because it makes bow-spamming even more frustrating.

This part gave me mixed feels, it may be true that some players would not enjoy war when kits are not playing on their favor but I don't think the ones to 'blame' are, or should be, the kits. The 'problem' here is that, like I have said on that post I've linked, people don't want to leave their comfort zone, instead of switching from sword to bows for Wow kit, they'd rather stick to their good ol' sword and complain: 'Op bows!'.
"Everyone will know what to expect" means (to me, at least) that we will do the same, over and over again, and the ones who found their place/strategy/whatever will enjoy themselves and have higher stats with the certainty that it will not change any time soon, while what others can do is hope that War Top5 guys are not playing that match so they can enjoy a "fair" game.

I do agree with what Tef said.
Having only the base war kit would keep all them 'veterans' secure at war top for quite some time until someone practices enough to reach their level, til then, being killed by those vets is very demotivational; Having different kits will nerf down the veterans, at least on the kits they don't like, and give others a chance to fight them, this time, the challenge of fighting through the difficulty and learn how to pvp (now under new circumstances) is extended to the older players too.

I would say again that the problem is the comfort zone. Personally, having a situation where the kit doesn't favors me is a chance to try different strategies/techniques and I don't think that it would make my stats less accurate, more complete I'd say, as it would show my overall stats with all kits and situations war has, not just the most balanced one.

That would just increase your (and other good players) kill streak and kdr, actually, it would make spawncampers 'farm health' under spawn, increasing spawncamping.

 

1. Knockback is fun and useful
2. I always fight with my Blade of Grass
3. IKR?
4. Fire is cheap and unfair without much armor
5. Lack of kits?

 

Ah. Clearly we are at odds about the intentions of war. I thought it was to show PVP skill, tactics, and, above all, how good your internet is (because that has a HUGE effect on minecraft pvp). What you describe war as is an equalizer - if you aren't good at PvP, you can have an equal KDR to someone who is. If it's not about PVP skill, why have stats? If it's about "Well, do you get the kits with which you are good", then why measure how many kills and deaths you get? The thing that made war so alluring and popular in its early days was its purity (at least to me) and how true it was to "real" pvp. Also, the UHC mode suggestion wouldn't increase spawncamping, b/c you'd already be weakened by the time you got to their spawn (unless the players you are fighting are really bad), and wouldnt just be able to camp and heal w/your team. You keep talking about "veterans" - when you say that, do you mean "people with any skill at pvp"? Because that's what it keeps sounding like. Since I don't feel like quoting people today, Tall, knockback can be fun. Not when it takes 6-7 hits to kill someone, though. If changing kits, UP ALL WOODEN SWORDS TO STONE. They take *way* too many hits to kill someone.
Driver, about the "comfort zone". If you're genuinely bad with a bow (or just have really bad internet like this guy and often get spurts of insane arrow lag), you shouldn't have to try to bow people just because of randomness. The base kit is balanced in bow/sword effectiveness. If you do have kits, let them be the same.

 

What I question about the complete removal of kits it that, to show pvp skills and tactics, do you really need a game where both bow and sword are perfectly balanced?

Like I have said in the end of that post, I believe that having a kit that is not your favourite should be faced as a challenge: Can you keep your kdr when the balance is against you? Do you value your kdr over the game so much you'd rather quit than play under unfavorable circumstances? (I have seen that)

Typo said that a bow focused player would not enjoy half of the kits because those would favor his adversaries and talked about new players vs. veterans when replying to Tef (Tef and Typo used 'veteran', I just followed their line). I have focused my post on that, how kits that unbalance war for some may help others, even going further than 'bow players vs sword players', and not saying that this is the reason why kits should stay.

My view is, kits should unbalance bow-sword relation, if not, there'd be no point in having them and they should be removed. But the 'unbalancing' nature of them is not bad, it removes people off their soft couches as you may be the mvp in one round, and then become just a big walking target in the other.
It should not be compared to pvp world, as it's main concern was never bow-sword unbalance but complete armors and weapons levels/enchants disparity *cough* ...Moonlamb *cough*, which is not the case of war kits.

With different kits, you will see players behave differently, directions go inverse and it is up to you to adapt to the new situation. That is something I like and I find fun to watch and be part of.

 

I think that kits may not have to be removed as long as they don't suck as much as they do now. These kits need to be removed, or at least changed. Wow kit is the only okay kit (other than base) just because no fire/extreme knockback (which is every other kit).

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but reading most of Typo's posts, I seem to get the opinion that you guys have the idea that War has to be absolutely equal (and for some reason by being equal, it HAS to be the base kit, and it HAS to not have vines, knockback, flame aspect, golden apples or kit in general). However, please remember that everyone (EVERYONE) in the same match has the same kit. Something that we are trying to bring across here, because it is not like other PvP servers where you can choose which kit you want and people will choose the most OP kit which will debatably be WoW kit in this case. But thing is, everyone is using the WoW kit, so it's rather fair because everyone is OP, so everyone is on equal grounds in terms of equipment. Now it depends on your skill level with the bow. I admit with the WoW kit I don't ever pull out the sword, but this is what, 1 kit out of a total of 6 kits? You have 5 other kits where the bow is not as strong, and the sword is relatively stronger. So you are not "forced" to use the bow for these 5 other kits. If you're bad at the bow, you have the choice of using your bow and have a chance no matter how slight it is to kill someone, or charge in and die. The point of the WoW kit is to reward bow users. (I would really like to emphasis that WoW kit is 1 out of 6 kits, which seems to be what you're not getting here, like how Juggernaut has a really powerful sword too?)

Also about this issue of cowardice, you make it sound really easy to "surprise" someone with Fatninja's wooden sword, but everyone can see the name tags if you're not sneaking no matter how obscure it is with an obstacle in the way, making it extremely difficult to sneak behind someone without actually sneaking behind someone (See what I did there, eh?) The time taken to sneak behind someone is a chance for someone to discover that person if there is not much cover, or when this sneaky coward manages to set people on fire and is running out that they will not start pelting him with arrows or charging after him. Remember that fire bows do set people on fire, but you still have to actually hit people first with that arrow. And regarding your reason why you play war, yes it's your way of having fun in war, but many people have different reasons why they play war. DeityWar is a team deathmatch where the first team to reach a certain score wins. So you play to kill, I play to help my team win, which may or may not result in a good KDR because less deaths means less points for the other team. And if you play MOBA games like LoL and DotA which are extremely team-oriented, you would know that going "LEEEEEEROY JENKINS" and charging in will merely bring about unhappiness and frustration among your team. Of course this is an exaggeration because most people play DeityWar for fun like me, but still I would like to help the team win and it's fun for me to try and make it happen.

Golden apples. First choice is before you even jump down from spawn you use it. Second choice is you're severely injured and after a fight you use it. What I meant by you're killed before you get the chance regarding the second choice. You did not seem to understand that so I wanted to clarify. There's also a third choice where you give your golden apple to someone who has just finished a fight and is injured, thus bringing out the team in team deathmatch. "However, if someone was at full health and attacks someone who had just eaten their apple and loses because the other person has more than 10 hearts, well, anger can ensue." And why can't that someone at full health eat his golden apple? I don't quite understand this part. If that someone had already eaten his golden apple, then he would know that he's at an disadvantage, then too bad? Or should we give him infinite golden apples just to be safe and make sure that it's a fair match. The different choices the golden apples give adds to the gameplay mechanic.

This conversation seems to be an argument about whether DeityWar should remain as DeityWar or be changed to DeityPvP. Things like KDR do influence most people, but it is also a choice. I do not play to get my KDR up, but others will, and there's no stopping them. There should be no reason to stop them. You don't see people saying in wars "Hey let's not use flaming mortars because it's cowardly." War is about using terrain (Vines and what not) and whatever nonsense at your disposal to your advantage. (Knockback and Fire Aspect, OP bows and OP swords). War is not always fair, but DeityWar is fair because it's just a game and everyone has the same kit, but people with different strengths use this kit, whether to their own destruction or for a chance to win for a team.

"Just a random thought, I think that it would be interesting to (were fire to be removed) turn natural regeneration off and give health for a kill. This would decrease spawncamping and waiting, and would increase the amount of actual PvP that goes on.[/quote]

What Driver said makes sense. Spawn camping equals kills. Kills equals health. Health equal spawn camping more.

 

I think I gave off the wrong impression. I don't dislike the Wow kit. The kit is one of the better ones, sheerly because it has no fire and knockback. I don't hate kits. I hate these kits, mainly just because of fire/OP knockback. Wow kit is a fine kit. I completely agree with what Barry said- it should at least be weighted towards the base kit, but the other ones don't need to be necessarily taken out.

Don't forget- fatninja has speed. You can't see the name tags if you are looking the other way...

yeah, but the damage dealt by the bow (like 3.5 hearts i think) is plenty of reward for that hit. Lets say I hit my enemy 4 times and they hit me once. I will kill them, but with the fire it will take me down below half health. Kits should not be an equalizer between the good and the bad. Plus, rubberband does happen, trust me. I mean, if we got potions of fire resist, I might find it cool to fight while "on fire" but still.

Dude. I just dislike golden apples. No need to write an essay. I just don't like them. That's about it. I know I'm not the only one, either. If absorption was able to be turned off, I would have no problem with the apple. I just hate absorption. Just a personal thing.

You can't compare DeityWar to real war, as in real war, people are fighting for a cause. In DeityWar, people play because they want to have fun. You don't go to war for fun if you are sane. DeityWar, you do. I mean, you could argue that if this were meant to represent real war, we should have auto-firing bows. No. The little section at the end is a general guide, not for war specifically. I think that forcing people to play for their weaknesses is only a good thing when the person is good. If I am okay with a bow but terrible with a sword and on Juggernaut, I would get destroyed and not enjoy war.

Not quite. The thing is, even when you spawncamp, you take damage. It doesn't have to be a lot- only like 2-3 hearts, enough so that you will still die over time but also enough so that it remains pvp instead of waiting for regen. Were absorption to be turned off (yes plz), then you could get a golden apple on death, but I think that no regeneration will encourage fighting and not waiting in war.

 

Sorry about that, thought you were talking about all kits. Fire aspect is fine for me though, get no rubberbanding from that, although I do get plenty from knockback. (Most people if not everyone gets rubberbanding from knockback, and knockback really makes it easier for bow users, so I am still in favour of keeping knockback, but I understand if it's taken out because of the many complaints.)

Don't forget- The players on the other team have speed too, and backstabbing is not illegal in War or PvP. (As far as I know, it's a tactic that is effective if you manage to pull it off correctly.)

With Fire Aspect bows, you have the option of not pulling your bow to the maximum so you can deal just the flame damage only instead of the impact damage of the arrow. This creates a dynamism because it gives you that half a second to dodge the incoming arrow from the opponent or whatever. Yet if you don't charge your bow, you might not get the distance/power added to that single arrow to reach your opponent if he is too far away. Also DoT is DoT, single burst of damage is better in some situations so you won't be relying on fire damage all the time.

My personal thing is I like writing essays for fun (for school not so much), and I like golden apples. I don't get why you don't like absorption, it's not like only the opponent gets a golden apple. You get it too. Both teams get absorption, but once you use your golden apple, it is gone. In fact you could argue that golden apples are good for reducing spawn camping (They use the apple at spawn for 2 extra hearts and a regen and go down to fight with a slight advantage over the spawn campers)

And you're right, I am not using real war as a comparison for DeityWar regarding their motives. One is as you said, for a cause whether stupid or not, while the other is for having fun. I merely likened them both because they both had the word War in them, so it will have some aspects of real "war" in terms of gameplay. In this case, it would be "Use the weapon you're given to the best you can". Auto-firing bows may be abit extreme, but it also may be acceptable if both teams have them (Don't quote me on this, I've never tried it before)

"I think that forcing people to play for their weaknesses is only a good thing when the person is good. If I am okay with a bow but terrible with a sword and on Juggernaut, I would get destroyed and not enjoy war."

Okay, look at your signature, Typodestoyer (+18), you've destroyed people at least 18 times in a single match and these people did not enjoy war. I think we should get rid of you. (I'm just kidding btw. Just kidding! Don't press that ban button!) What I'm saying is that not everybody can be pleased. And remember that you get a 1/6th chance of getting the WoW kit, and 1/6th chance of getting the Juggernaut kit, and 1/6th chance of getting the base kit, and there's 3 more kits which vary. So if you don't like bows, there's still a 5/6 chance of getting one where bows aren't totally imba and vice versa. It is however your choice whether you want to try and improve on your weakness while just playing and having fun.

Also remember when you're spawn camping usually the whole team is spawn camping, so when one person gets damaged from the spawn camp-ees, they will run back and regen while his teammates continue the spawn camping, and they take turns to do so. Or even if one of them dies, the teammates will keep the pressure until reinforcements return once more. I don't mind getting spawn camped because I don't really care about my KDR since if it comes to the point that we're getting spawn-camped that my team will probably lose so I just run and let the aggro be on me. It will then be safe for my teammates to come down, but that's just me.

 

Well I don't know what kind of internet you have, but rubberband from fire is often an issue for me. In regards to the knockback, Saint's post is God. His ideas for both axeplode (babye) and cloud warrior are perfect.

First of all, not pulling your bow back to the maximum is always a valid strategy, fire is not necessary. It doesn't "add" that to the game. Also, fire damage does more damage than you think, because it pierces all armor. On maps like Inferno where there is no water, fire. just. sucks.

When I talk about fairness, I don't mean in the overall game sense, I mean in a single fight.

If someone needs their golden apple, it usually means that they won't be able to kill someone if they go down, apple or not. The two extra hearts are not more than the hearts your enemies regenerate over time (cough cough no regen).

why did you quote me without responding, don't know what your point here was.

I'm not saying that pleasing everyone is possible. However, just one thing: bows are also OP on axeplode. Fire (cough cough) is worth it and a stone axe is as bad as a wooden sword. And on the first part, the final score was 22-30. That means that they would have actually enjoyed the game, as to them, it was a fine game. My team just did not do well (other than me), so the only people that wouldn't enjoy war is my own team, not the people I killed.

my point exactly. get rid of regen, problem (partially) solved.
Now, on the topic of kits and the removal thereof. Honestly, I think that without fire, Axeplode, or the current cloud warrior kit (use Saint's revision), then kits would work 10000 times better on war. I personally would like to try no regen and absorption off and health for kills, but that's just me.
And trust me, fire is just bad. It unbalances the game for people with reduced-visual-annoyance-fire texture packs and widens the connection's affect on PvP.